Packs

[Thirteen]

I just want to let you guys know one thing -

Packs are currently free to create! However, I would prefer it if there was a limit of one per member, two per staff.

So, get out there and create your packs!

[The X-Ray Dog]

If I may voice this opinion to see if anyone agrees with me: I've always been very strongly against building a forum based around packs. Especially a forum like this one that allows literally all kinds of animals. I mean, it pretty much restricts members to creating group oriented characters of social species. If someone created... idk a tiger, which is a solitary animal, they'd be pretty SOL, restricted to only one board on the forum that they could roleplay on. They would not be able to participate in any plots either, as I'm sure the plots of this forum would then center around the packs.

Don't get me wrong, I think packs are important and can be very fun roleplaying tools. I just wish there were more options for those of us with more... anti-social characters.

[Arrow]

I'm not entirely sure, it's a good point but it's one that most RPs don't bother with, as most people have 1 character per person. We haven't had any major issues with the system yet, so I figure "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

[Thirteen]

Well, I suppose it's up to each individual. Perhaps there will be a limit or something, but they're just supposed to be a minor feature. I suppose we'll just have to see when we have more members.

[The X-Ray Dog]

I can't really say I agree with that idea of not doing anything. I know that I personally know a large number of people who refuse to join roleplays that are not loner friendly (myself included). So we might never get "more members" if we don't do something to make the forum appeal to as many people as possible. Especially since, like I said, this roleplay is supposed to be friendly to ANY and ALL species. It's contradictory to then organize it in a way that is specific to only packs. Leopards, tigers, reptiles, most herbivores, 75% of animal species are then completely exempt from the forum by that logic because they don't do the pack thing.

But I guess I'm just a graphic designer. I don't really have the authority to push for anything. It just sucks for me since my one character is a loner with no interest in joining a pack. She has no place to go and nothing to do as a result, which makes this forum a little boring from this perspective. I mean, I'm just going to make another character, but it's a shame that this forum practically REQUIRES that you have a pack friendly character.

I'm not suggesting that we delete everything and revamp the entire forum board system. But at least add some sub-boards to the loner lands so people have some place to go other than just... "any old place". Just seems so... lazy, so unfriendly, extremely limiting for a forum that supposedly encourages creativity and freedom. Contradicts everything I thought this forum stood for.

Again this is just me, but being on the losing end of this situation, I really must insist. I can't really roleplay on a forum that completely ignores the kind of characters that I like to play. Because every other forum on the face of planet is so pack-oriented, I've simply grown extremely bored of that side of roleplay... because everybody does it.

[Arrow]

Did you have a particular solution in mind?

One thing to remember though is that just because they're solitary animals in real life doesn't mean they have to be the same in an RP. We've given them voices, the ability to teleport, to raise the dead, to control lightning, or create and destroy on a whim - surely the ability to work together as a team is equally important.

Though it'll be impossible to please everyone, your opinion does matter (to me, at least) and you do bring up extremely valid points. I'm just not sure as to whether it's that big of an issue on an RP board that's as small as this one is, hence my current stance.

[Thirteen]

Well, you both have excellent points! And X-ray, your opinions do count, even if you are a graphics designer. Everyone on this site's opinion counts to me, just as equally. Admittedly, this is a thing I might have to drop slightly when we have more members, but for now all you guys have equal opinion in my mind.

I suppose we should consider the practicality of both situations. I know for sure I'm not going to get rid of the packs that have already started, but I don't see why characters that are naturally non-social can't interact with others. After all, this (As Arrow pointed out) is a Mythical RP site. I'm willing to let worms form social groups and go on missions if they want to, because of that fact.

However, I do see how the RPers may feel excluded. I think that perhaps joining a pack would cost, say 30 silver bones. That way, there would be at least some loner posts, therefore making sure that there are at least a few characters to RP with. Also, I'm thinking about introducing a rewards thingo, so loners would receive one type of reward, and pack members would receive another. Well, I don't know if that's going to go ahead, partly because I don't know the code, but it would be nice.

[Arrow]

I was honestly iffy about the whole 'shop' thing to begin with when I joined; not sure if adding a cost about joining packs would achieve the desired result. Unfortunately I'm also at a standstill for a solution for the issue.

[Lyta]

OK. So here's my stance.

Packs are important because they provide the kind of plots you don't ever get without them- wars, alliances, so-and-so falls in forbidden love with member of another pack, such-and-such-pack's leader betrays them, this pack takes over that pack, etc.

Also, packs give you something to fight for. If you're just a loner wandering around, the RPer remains completely emotionally detached from their character's aims. They might feel upset when their character's relations die or if somebody writes a exceptionally moving post, but you never get inspired, you never get loyalty and fire and sparks. If something's an interesting pack device, you just do it. You don't particularly care about your character's aims, just about a good plot.
The way to really entrance members, though, is to give them loyalty and inspiration. When you can do this, an RP is unputdownable. I've only ever been in one RP that was good enough to do that, and the RPing side of that site is dead now because the RP plot finished. But because we were all part of an alliance fighting against the other alliances, we ended up with real pack/alliance loyalty, the feeling that you belonged to something, were part of something, fought for something. The other alliances were the enemy. As Blaze leader, I remember doing a thousand and a half inspiring 'speeches', and at first it was just because my character did that sort of thing, and then it turned into, actually, you know what? I care. I want to defeat the enemy. I want to inspire my members. I want to be victorious once and for all!
If you can make members care, because they are emotionally involved, then you get something you will never get any other way. Members who actually believe in their cause, because once you fight for it enough, it becomes real.

On the other hand, there's a good point about it not being so loner-friendly. So how about this.

We put a limit on packs- once enough have been created, which would be up to you, Thirteen, then we stop all pack creation. Say then we only have 5-10 packs, whatever seems most appropriate to get diversity but keep the number down. Then say that the packs tend to fight over food, territory, members etc. Then the packs will honestly fight over their members, competing to be the first to persuade every new member to be in their pack. And once they start fighting over one thing, soon they'll be fighting over all sorts and you get the kind of atmosphere I was talking about before- camaraderie within your pack, actual belief in their cause, etc. That makes members care.
Then, say that making a loner is encouraged- eg. you get some SB for making one. That'll mean that it balances out- packs fight for members, but loners get SB. So about half the members will be in packs, the other half'll be loners.
Then, once we have lots of loners, we introduce plots. Such as, 'earthquake in X territory' or 'rockfall in X territory'. Some sites make some divisions- 'sitewide plots' are things such as earthquakes, fires spreading across multiple territories, 'events' happen to a small group of characters, 'surprises' happen to one person. This makes life more interesting for loners.

Finally, I'd say that we keep the number of packs less than the amount of territories. That gives loners a lot more space.

I'm at a bit of standstill too, and can't come up with a decent way to fix the problem at all. But introducing a reward for loners should help, and plots that everybody can join in with, even loners.

[The X-Ray Dog]

You guys are reading into this way too much. I'd never suggest the idea of "getting rid" of any packs currently in existence. That would be ridiculous. Packs are fun, make for great plots, etc etc. But be aware that a loner character or a character not of that pack cannot go into any of those pack lands.

So my problem isn't the existence of packs. My problem is the non-existence of any place for the loners to go. Save the one unclaimable board on the forum, which has no... structure, no foundation, nothing to stimulate any amount of rp in those lands. It's literally described in the board description as having any sort of climate imaginable. There are no descriptions of landmarks or specific locations such as rivers, places to hunt, places to drink, places to sleep, etc.

Now this is at least partially my fault. I have always been a fan of forums with more specific boards that each represent locations. For example: beyondthepridelands.proboards.com/index.cgi? I'm using one of my forums as an example here because I don't want to advertise (this forum is not at all active or open or... anything) but this can be found many many places, including WonderWhy and other such roleplays. Where the pack lands are categories (or boards) and there are "destinations" or locations within each land (as boards, or as sub-boards, either way will work). This gives members a better idea of how the lands are designed, what kinds of items are in each land, and creates some... motivation for roleplay.

If a land had a watering hole, for example, two characters might meet there because they both happen to be thirsty, or one wants to go for a swim, etc. This forum does not have anything like that, save in the packlands where sub-boards and smaller claimed lands have descriptions the denote their general location. The loner lands, by comparison, have been almost completely ignored, left vacant, with no gangs, no locations, no methods of interaction. So, to me, this makes it seem like loners are... discouraged, or if a member were to create a loner, that they would be left bored and ignored on this forum because everything is so pack oriented. The descriptions, the characters, the boards on the forum. Everything is in the packlands, nothing is in the loner lands. Do you see what I'm saying? It's extremely discouraging. And, since that is the kind of character, it's extremely discouraging for me as a roleplayer.

Similarly, this forum has space for a total of 14 different packs, plus small bands and gangs within each one. That is a staggeringly large number of packs that will almost certainly dominate any plots the forum decides to introduce simply due to sheer numbers. And as someone who prefers roleplaying outside of packs, that is just extremely unappealing to me. So, though I don't think this needs to be changed, necessarily, but should definitely be kept as a major consideration when planning plots in the future. A generic "so and so versus so and so" plot is going to completely exclude loners.

Again, not necessarily saying that anything about this forum needs to be immediately removed (although Thirteen I should remind you that you do in fact have a rule written down that states that only animals that are naturally social may form packs. If I may quote: "Only creatures that form packs in nature can form packs. If a character is a fantasy creature, you must say what animal the fantasy creature is based on, and the fantasy creature will follow the specified animal's traits." If this is not true, you should probably remove that or change it to say the opposite.). I'm just saying that I wish a more conscious effort was made in the interest of those of us who do not want to be a part of the Avagadro's number of packs in this place. That there was more for us loners to do, more places for us to interact without being in danger of being attacked for trespassing, and that the areas that already exist for us were a little clearer and not so arbitrary.

[Thirteen]

(changed the rule thingo - that was a really good point)

Also, I love the set-up of your site! So now, I think we will reduce the pack lands and turn them into wild lands. Guys, could you please help with coming up with descriptions?

Also, there's this other site, Valoria Lion RP that I think has the set-up perfect, well close-to anyway. valoria.moral-lock.com/index.php? , although I'm not advertising it. Is there a way of making a similar set-up? Because I'm really thinking of having something similar, because the set-up over there makes it easy and interesting to use. However, I'm not saying we have to be like them, it's just an idea.

So yeah, if you guys have any other ideas, just say so. Lyta, I love your ideas! So I'm going to pull the site into maintenance mode, so we can work it out, and change the set-up of the site. Moonie, although you ain't staff, I'm going to make you a moderator so you can continue posting, but you don't have to do anything if you don't want to.

[Lyta]

OK, here's what I suggest....

-Restrict it to 10 packs.

-Make 20 or so areas- here are my suggestions for terrain types:

1. Huge barren windy plains/moor (Rabbit hunting time!)
2.Hills
3.Dense Forest (deep, dark, scary woods)
4.Light forest (trees are further apart, more light, ferns, pretty area)
5.Desert
6.Arctic/snowy
7.Mountains
8.Swamp/delta
9.Coastline/beach
10.Canyon
11.Rocky plateau
12.An area of ocean containing many small islands & a reef
13.Large island with sand & volcano at center
14.Series of slopes & cliffs with waterfalls running down
15.Jungle/rainforest
16. Underground cave/tunnel system
17. Lush valley with river down centre
18. Smallish, comfortable flowery meadow
19. An isolated clear lake somewhere
20. The Moonshine Empire


Then, having only 10 packs will ensure only half of the area is pack-inhabited.

-Make creating a pack cost a fair bit more.
-Make it possible for loners to live on their own, but belong to a cause/movement
-Reward people for creating loner characters- offer them a tradeoff:

Characters living in packs will get better protection, be able to hunt more easily as they will have teammates to help them, and have friends to help them when they are injured, ill, or otherwise unable. When they grow old, their pack will look after them. They also get to take part in pack plots.
Characters who are loners can be any kind of animal. If you create one, you will be awarded 50 SB by staff. Loners can take part in any movement, cause or plot, as they are not restricted by the beliefs of their pack/pack duties/confines of pack territories. A loner can go into any territory, though may be confronted if they enter the territory of a particular territorial pack/ a pack which they have antagonised in the past.

Make all that stuff rules, and make the trade-off clear by adding a note into the joining form. I'll add one into the joining-form-that-appears-when-you-create-a-thread, if you agree.

-Here's an idea... Northern Lands, Southern Lands, Eastern Lands and Western Lands get changed into categories. Then each board for the terrain type- forest, desert, Arctic and suchlike- is a full board. Then each board has sub-boards. A pack can claim a sub-board as its territory, but they cannot have the entire board.
Once a pack gets over 10 members, it can expand its territory, and own 2 sub-boards.
Over 20 members, own 3 sub-boards.
Over 30 members, own 4 sub-boards.
And so on. That mirrors real life- bigger pack, bigger territory. A pack can own many sub-boards, but they must ALL be inside the same board. Once they own all the sub-boards in their board they're at max. And even if a pack owns all the sub-boards in a board, posts made in that board which are NOT in a sub-board are still outside their territory.

Seem fair to everybody? Thirteen, you likez?

[Lyta]

Oh yes, and another idea-

Make a subboard in the plotting area labelled "Events."

In this area, make a stickied thread (or I can make it), that says that once every month or so, there will be some random events. These can be events, prophecies, surprises or sitewide plots.
EVENTS- these just happen, if the event is that there is a fire in Terrain 7, a member can't decide 'OK, I'm going to have my charrie walk into Terrain 7 and see no signs of fire whatsoever and not get burnt or anything'.
They are generally bad, but can be good. Examples could be a wildfire, huge rockfall blocking a territory off from the others, or a rift opening to another world and horrible monsters coming through. They generally affect an area, and anybody who comes into that area, because they're something happening in that area.
SITEWIDE PLOTS- something that affects the whole site, such as one pack having decided to take over the whole world. Staff can't just decide when one happens, this site is about creativity and that means the members create them, but they have to RP it out, and that means they need the necessary stuff- a member with only one character can't take over the whole world with an army unless they recruit some other members to join in first or make some more characters and RP those characters joining the army.
SURPRISES- something that happens to one person or a small group of people. It can be bad or good. You can buy being exempt from all surprises at the shop, but this exempts you from ALL surprises, even good ones. It usually builds on what is happening in RP. So if a character has a sick friend, it could be finding a magical medicine to heal your sick friend; if the character spent the night in a deserted-looking cave, they could wake up to find it inhabited by an unhappy dragon. That kind of thing.
PROPHECIES- somebody with a future-seeing power makes a prophecy. To have your character be somebody in a prophecy, you have to sign them up on the prophecy page, it can cost a certain amount to ensure that having paid that much, the character stays active in the prophecy. A prophecy can be as big and dramatic as the one in The Sight by David Clement-Davies or as mysterious as the SunClan "All is one, one is all. Find the price but do not pay it. Two can't be one, but three can be four." It can be very small and not affecting much, but that would take away the whole point, which is to come up with interesting dramatic plots.
Once you sign up and the prophecy gets underway, you get PM-ed with what your character has to do/ where they need to go. But you won't know what will happen to them until it happens, which is why prophecies include an element of risk and fun and unpredictableness. For instance, RPer A might sign up and be told to have his character explore the ruins in Territory 3, while RPer B might be told to have her character killed at the hands of RPer C, the 'baddie' of the prophecy, then go and haunt the ruins. Once RPer A and RPer B's characters encounter one another, RPer A might be told to have their charrie try and free the ghost of RPer B's charrie so it can rest in peace, but RPer B then discovers via the all-knowing PM that the whole point of all of this was that so his/her character's ghost could go and tell so-and-so who it was that attacked them and murdered their daughter, since they're a ghost now and they've got nothing to lose for admitting they stood by and watched.
Y'know, that kind of thing. Like a Murder Mystery, I suppose. But since some RPers prefer to pick their own plots, signing up is optional. But you CAN sign up if you want to, for RPers desperate for a good plot or who want a bit of risk and unpredictability and ACTUALLY wanting to defeat the enemy or solve the murder rather than just having their CHARACTER want to. Big difference- in the former, they care.

• Oh yes, and I'd make a thread somewhere... Rules and Info perhaps.... called "SB Claim." Opposite of the shop- if somebody does something that we've said we will award SB for, they can post there with proof and we award the SB, then make a record of it to stop them deleting the message and claiming again. Then, on the thread, list all the things you can get SB for, and include being involved with a plot. To stimulate plots, give people some SB for planning and participating in a smallish plot, more SB for participating in a bigger plot involving more people, more SB for being in a fight, and give a medium reward for participating in Events and stuff. (having your character just notice the wildfire/rockfall/world rift/evil monster/nightmarish beast haunting the terrain/lucky shooting star falling to earth IS NOT ENOUGH. They can't just notice it and pass by, to participate they need to be hurt by it, discover it, try and stop it, find the fallen star, fight the evil monster, try and close the world rift, etc.)

[The X-Ray Dog]

Works for me Lyta.
I just hope it doesn't displace anyone who already have threads going on in the forum.

We've got to make these changes quick too. Otherwise our normal members, like Moonie, are gonna get bored.

[Lyta]

OK. What I'll do- if Thirteen agrees with my plan- is I'll start transferring boards over, moving any threads that are already going into new boards. If we all work together that won't take long at all. Once I've done that, we can pull the forum out of maintenance mode and all advertise like crazy to get some more members in. Everybody happy with that?